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okay three I
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gri under
the 30-year rule cabinet papers from the
minor strike in 1984 have just been
released the papers show that Margaret
Thatcher was lying to the population
about what really happened in the strike
and the Arthur scargel was indeed the
one telling the truth the year-long
strike which began 30 years ago was an
historical epic which changed Britain
for the worse and in which I battled
every single day as an honorary member
of the national Union of Mine Workers
for most of my life one of my comrades
in that battle went on to write the book
about Thatcher's war against hundreds of
thousands of decent hardworking British
citizens whom she described as the Enemy
Within the title of the book published
by Verso and updated and to be reissued
in March of this year the author and
Associate editor of the Guardian
newspaper Sheamus mil is our first guest
on the Sputnik but before that gatri
took a walk along great Russell Street
in London towards the museum no not the
British museum the Trade union Congress
to talk about the 30th anniversary of
the most important struggle by organized
labor in Britain's history but oddly you
didn't find much interest amongst the
brothers and sisters there surprisingly
or perhaps not so surprisingly not
indeed as we were standing outside the P
I saw the SEC to looking at us so I
thought I'll give him a friendly note
saying that we're just standing outside
on the pavement to interview your
workers about this big minor strike from
30 years ago he was making such a fuss
out of it saying that we needed
permission and that people had already
complained about the nuisance even
though we were only standing there for
one minute getting ready as all the
people came out of the building for
lunch the vast majority just rejected to
be interviewed about the minor strike
and some even used the argument that
they had nothing to do with it imagine
that Tu people had nothing to do with
the miner strike the biggest strike in
British history and you see before the
minor strike that Tu was a giant in the
land now it is a dwarf and the reason is
because the miners lost and one of the
reasons they lost is because the TU
didn't lift a finger to help them but
two people I think did agree to speak
let's see what they had to say I think
it um divided this country very badly I
think the miners were treated extremely
badly I think the government lied about
what they were doing and we're now
finding out that that that was the case
which a lot of us suspected at the time
yeah it was obviously uh targeted at the
Trade union movement particularly the
miners and um of course it went on to
the print Etc and we are where we are
now where trade unions are seem to be a
dirty word in society when the actual
fact they're not scarel was very much
demonized back then he he was very much
um but then anybody takes a stand
against um government tends to be
demonized do you think that Ed Milan
should pledge for a public inquiry now
yes you think he will
no because um I don't think there would
be very many votes in it and I think the
right-wing press would RI to Pieces
during that time you had the sinking of
the Bel Grano you had all these sort of
things going on you heard Margaret fer
visiting South Africa when as opposed to
Banning a part and sanctions he had a
lot of things going on that time and
yeah an inquiry into this would possibly
draw out some of that other stuff as
well yes I may she rest in peace or Hell
wherever she is but yeah there should be
an
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inquiry may she rest in peace or in hell
with Sheamus Millan I could discuss that
all day but that's probably too
theological uh an argument tell us first
Sheamus about the 30-year r Ro the
papers that have just been released and
what new they tell us well every year um
the government releases uh cabinet and
and government papers from 30 years
previously and sometimes they do it a
bit earlier nowadays as well and
sometimes in fact quite often they don't
release the papers at all because
they're too embarrassing and this year
they released a lot of stuff about 1984
that was 30 years ago and about the
minor strike which began in 1984 84 and
went on for a year and in those papers
uh there are certainly very important
confirmations of things that had been
widely suspected but not known for
certain like for example uh the fact
that Thatcher had a plan to send in the
Army to keep coal stocks moving because
and this is a very crucial point I think
that's often misunderstood by people who
were quite supportive of the miners at
the time which is that the strike came
very close to succeeding on more than
one occasion and the government was in a
panic that not only fuel supplies would
run out and there would be blackouts but
that Food Supplies would run out um so
that's one thing that comes out of it
another thing that comes out of the
papers is that it was said at the time
by the miners leadership not just Arthur
Scargill but him in particular uh that
there was a secret Hit List Hit List to
close 75 um coal mines and that was
denied by the coal board at the time by
the government it was said to be a
appalling Lie by the miners leadership
they were manipulating and misleading
their followers the media echoed all
that and of course it's revealed that
there was indeed such a Hit List there
are other things besides
confirmation that the government
manipulated the media that the security
services MI5 in particular were heavily
involved in operations uh against the
strike and for example that the
government was planning to charge the
miners leaders Arthur Scargill
personally with incitement to Riot and
they only pulled back from it because
they realized it might make the
situation worse but I think what all
that underlines is this was a a mighty
confrontation uh between the state uh
and organized labor in a form that
really hadn't happened since the general
strike in 1926 and certainly hasn't
happened since it was a watershed in
modern British history it was a battle
not only about coal mines and and uh and
Fuel and of course the arguments changed
about that in the years since as climate
change has become a crucial issue but it
was about how Britain has run and
whether or not the market led neoliberal
model of capitalism which has since been
imposed on us was going to be uh was
going to run Riot which is of course
what happened after the strike so I
think it is a very important part of
British history and it's one in which
there are important lessons for us all
to this day and yet when we were at the
TU Vox popping yesterday these were the
only two uh people who would speak about
the strike and yet it's epic character
ought to be felt most keenly amongst
trade unionists because trade
then as compared to now were of course a
force in the land then and very much not
now well I think the Trade union
movement was divided then in a political
way more than it is perhaps today and
there was a very strong rightwing at
that time among Trade union leaders and
leaderships uh who were very opposed to
the miners and the miners leaders and
their militancy and their political
trade unionism uh and didn't like Arthur
Scargill didn't like Peter heathfield
didn't like Mick mahi the three main
leaders of the strike uh and they felt
that the strike was undermining of the
tu's attempt to appear reasonable and be
accommodating with Employers in the new
environment of that time the new class
and economic environment and they
thought it was undermining for the labor
leadership as you'll remember Neil
kinnick was then the labor leader and he
was trying to he was beginning the new
labor starting the whole new labor thing
although it wasn't called that then and
he himself
uh could not abide Arthur Scargill he
didn't believe that the miners should be
having this fight he thought they were
running it in the wrong way and he
himself to this day believes that he
never became prime minister because of
the minor strike so I think that's all
reflected among people in in people's
attitudes um they find Scar's reput
personality too confr too
confrontational they think his tactics
were wrong but I think that's really to
misunderstand the nature of the
confrontation there wasn't n an easy
compromise there wasn't a traditional
Trade union accommodation available the
government of the day Margaret Thatcher
and the Tories went for the miners
because they were uniquely powerful they
controlled 80% of Britain's power supply
uh they were led by a uh an ideological
leader well they were not just Scargill
but they were led by a highly
politicized group of leaders and
activists um who were prepared to fight
uh for their industry for their
communities for their jobs in a way that
other trade unionists weren't but
actually they didn't have the option in
1984 1985 of going for a gentle rundown
of the industry they were they were
basically faced with the alternative of
a full-on confrontation and a crushing
of their industry and their jobs and
their communities or resistance and they
took the path of resistance and as I was
saying the strike came much closer to
success than is understood or that than
was understood at the time it's it's
available in lots and lots of bits of
evidence well nowhere better uh than in
your book The Enemy Within which is not
just the book of the strike but one of
the books of the 1980s period which was
so profoundly important uh in Britain uh
I remember every day uh almost of of the
strike but many watching this will not
just say a bit briefly if you will about
what Britain was like during that 12
months well it was a confront PL ation
that was played out in the coal field
areas which are not uh in the main
population centers by and large in the
country so it was played out in South
Wales in Scotland in Yorkshire in
darbishire and of course in
Nottinghamshire and one of the crucial
problems of the strike was that a
section of the miners mainly based in
Nottinghamshire who thought that their
pits would survive if they continued
working and played ball with the
government they continued working and
that was the crucial uh Achilles heel of
the strike uh so these these were
confrontations that were played out
every day on the picket line between a
very violent and aggressive police force
that was trying on behalf of the
government to keep pits open in areas
where miners were still working and the
large majority of miners who were on
strike more than 150,000 of them who
were on strike for more than a year were
trying to close those pits and make the
strike effective and because the
government had decided not mainly to use
the law because they feared that was it
was too controversial at the time the
new anti-ra Union laws as they were then
they thought that would inflame the
strike and spread it and all their
concentration was trying to restrict the
strike uh they used the police as a
battering ram to try and crush the
miners so there were very violent
confrontations you know 11 people died
in the strike but there were multiple uh
Frontline confrontations in places like
ore in Yorkshire uh where day after to
day thousands of pickets fought the
police and of course for people in other
parts of the country where nothing like
this was happening this was all quite
bizarre in a way it was a it was kind of
like a civil war taking place somewhere
else but for many many millions of
people in Britain they understood what
was at stake and it was a very divisive
dispute in public opinion at the time
but between 30 and 40% of the British
population always supported the miners
and the strike the system that was
imposed after the strike uh the
thatcherite economics the ne liberal
model which has caused such Devastation
to communities not only in Britain but
of course throughout the world crashed
and burned in 2008 in the crisis that
we're living through still today and was
exposed to be a failure and that was
what the the minor strike battle was
really about do you think there will be
a public inquiry into the strike uh I
don't think so but I think it would be
very worthwhile but I fear that some of
the things that we're talking about the
most sensitive things wouldn't even be
released uh for that inquiry but well
you'll get them in here they are
reissued in March the new edition of the
Enemy Within with new material with new
material updated uh it's a fascinating
uh story and you're the very best person
to tell it Sheamus Mill thanks very
much now if you're smart you've already
read Sheamus Mill's magnificent article
in the guardian last Thursday about
World War I after the break we'll be
talking to a real live soldier who knows
all about real war unlike the PIP sque
weak politicians trying to terrorize our
history Masters into a parade ground
formation lined up in defense of the war
stay tuned I promise you you won't want
to miss
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it welcome back education secretary
Michael Gove couldn't fight his own way
out of a paper bag but he's been lobbing
verbal grenades everyone from film
directors to Mr Bean from the late Alan
Clark author of The donkeys and his
former conservative colleague to just
about every historian in the land he
thinks questioning the donkeys and the
Mass Slaughter over which they presided
is well
unpatriotic Joe glenton on the other
hand was a real fighter in Afghanistan
until he refused to do it anymore on the
grounds that it was an unjust war and
moreover doomed to last longer than the
first and second world wars put together
and for no real purpose he was sent to
The Glass House for his trouble spending
six months in total behind bars now a
free man he prefers to speak like one
and writing in the guardian this week he
talked about the World War I from the
point of view of Tommy Atkins the
proverbial eponymous British private
Soldier and I'm glad to have him here
with us Joe you're a an anti-war hero uh
you are at pains in your book Soldier
box not to claim you were a war hero uh
but you have become a hero for those of
us in the anti-war movement because you
had the courage to to stand up think for
yourself and speak for yourself of
course in the first world war where
Millions were militarized and millions
were killed uh there were also
conscientious objectors just like you
tell us about them uh well there were
you know there were all kinds of reasons
that people refused in the in the first
world war some of them did so on
religious grounds some on political
grounds but um they were you know
treated routinely very very badly they
were executed at the some of them were
executed they were some of them were
were imprisoned and they were tried and
they were made a mockery of and pillared
in public um and even when today when
particularly people in government talk
about conscientious objection they still
th see it through that prism of World
War I and that's something I try to
address but we have to understand
conscientious objection is not a
shouldn't be seen as that radical a
thing it's a right it's a legal and
contractual right in fact the army of
the three services is unique in that it
has in Queen's regulations the governing
body of laws the uh it says that you're
allowed to be a conscientious objector
it's something you you're allowed to do
and yet the vast majority in the first
world war marched off straw hats
trumpets beating of drums uh it was to
be a glorious Affair and it was all to
be over by Christmas but it didn't work
out like that no it didn't work out that
and it's very interesting when we look
at the actual reasons it's it's
obviously a heavily kind of mystified
period of history but when we look at
the actual reasons and you can find
Tommy Atkins voice if you look hard
enough in Memoirs of of um of
non-commission soldiers um it at the
start it was still a mix as it is today
of of E economic reasons and also the
ideological stuff the idea that war is
somehow heroic and military service is
heroic and it was about King and Country
and we see that stuff now being reprised
effectively we see that with the whole
kind of hero industry which is emerging
and the lionization of soldiers which
distracts completely from the fact that
these are normal people who've been
who've been uh tricked in many cases
normal young people often they want to
go and help other people you know there
there's a kind of germ of a noble um
noble cause in there these people are
tricked into serving amazingly uh many
of the soldiers who enlisted in droves
in the first world war were doing so
because it gave them clothes uh when
they didn't have any gave them three
meals a day when they certainly didn't
have any gave them a roof over their
head that didn't leak and not many of
them had that hither to And yet when I
read your book these were amongst the
reasons why you and your fellow soldiers
uh were happy to join the Army exactly
yeah very much the case nearly across
the board most of the guys I served with
we're talking about guys from uh what
former industrial towns in Scotland and
the north of England which were smashed
by Thatcher and these are guys who who
who want to kind of make something of
themselves and if you're a working-class
guy like I was one of the only routs
available to do that is is the military
it's always been the case um and also I
mean it we're still experiencing much as
the veterans in the first world war did
when you leave the military then you're
not a hero anymore no one's interested
anymore uh we see the amount of veterans
who are homeless in London the amount of
veterans in prison so you're you're
useful that the wounds and the hardships
of the soldier have always been
politically useful for a short time and
then you forgotten well see Joe this
it's one thing for a soldier to start
think for himself and it's another to
actually act upon it and like you leave
the whole Army in war were there many
fellow soldiers that thought the one
thing but weren't strong enough to get
to the second push I think so I think a
lot of guys I mean the reality of
warfare in Afghan or in Iraq would
strips away the kind of rationale you're
given as a soldier within a very short
period of time of being in Afghanistan
it's very clear that we weren't there to
help little brown girls go to school and
we weren't there to build infrastructure
um and that reality check affects
everyone um some guys um you know go
completely the other way to me and that
they start to kind of really believe it
and they become True Believers and buy
into this stuff yeah for sure you'll see
you know there are military guys on the
far right nowadays and and it kind of
experiened war will tear you apart and
you will go one way or another when that
happens some people end up buying into
it and it ends up that their politics
are completely based around the fact
that they were a soldier and they see
the world through that prism other guys
and this is increasingly the case with
Veterans for peace which is an
organization I'm involved in people go
the other way and we've got we're now
100 plus in our ranks if you like uh and
we're absolutely committed to to
speaking truth to the issue of war and
we go into schools and we do all kinds
of activism and campaigns to uh to bust
the myths around War war and do you get
a good reception from that in schools
well yeah I mean the best thing we find
is just tell stories um kids get it when
you tell stories you don't have to go
into the the kind of politics and
theoretical stuff you just tell your
experience of what it's actually like
and that helps to strip away a lot of
the kind of jingoistic myths which
surround War today that they read in
their history books of course for sure
yeah I mean increasingly that's going to
be the case with Go's project well go
wants to rewrite the history books of
course and any questioning of the first
world war he deems uh unpatriotic but as
you pointed out in your brilliant
Guardian article this week this uh
parade of politicians uh is akin to
looting the bodies of the Fallen uh on
the battlefield they're seeking to in
the most grubby way possible to Garner
votes for themselves and for their party
off the suffering uh of the soldiers for
sure yeah and I think that there's a
whole history of this as I said the
soldier is useful for a while he's
useful and every lots of people in power
whether in the media or in politics seek
to be seen as the solder's friend that's
always um you know very that's a passing
fad while they can milk it for for votes
they will but it doesn't last and if you
can look at if you look at history other
than goian history you'll find that
that's the case that the soldier is used
and abused when I entered Parliament
more than a quarter of a century ago
there were lots of old Soldiers uh on
the benches I remember so VI L Dennis
Healey former labor leader a major in
the landing at anzio warning against the
first Iraq War uh in 1991 warning that
Murphy's Law would apply that anything
that could go wrong would go wrong uh
and you could almost smell the cordite
uh on his clothes as he described the
hell of War I'm just wondering you as a
former Soldier working at this sharp end
what soldiers think about the
politicians most of whom nowadays are
these pipsqueaks that I talked about
they wouldn't know how to fight their
way out of a paper bag I know that cuz I
regularly challenge them to a fight they
always run away but none of them have
served in action none of them have heard
the boom of the guns the Monstrous uh
rattle uh o of the guns I'm wondering if
soldiers feel contempt for the
politicians that make the decisions that
send them into Harm's Way or what
there's a a kind of reverence to them
well I think there's a there's a very
broad range of opinion within the
military on that um you know there are
some guys who who kind of uh who kind of
accept that and and you're trained to uh
to you're told to you're not political
your job isn't political which for me
now looking back is ridiculous there's
nothing more political than War
obviously um and other guys are are
openly contemptuous but I think what
happens often is that guys kind of they
they kind of internalize this idea that
you're just a soldier you don't question
orders even though they they do have
these questions building up inside them
and often what happens is when they come
back and leave the military they have
these these contradictions have become
very apparent to them because of the
reality of War but they don't act on
them and so very often these guys will
be kind of churning internally for many
many years and and part of what we do
with Veterans for peace is try to reach
out to these guys and talk to these
people um and uh and kind of engage them
because those are the most critical
voices there are and obviously Tommy
Atkins his voice completely undercuts
the voices of uh the very few veterans
that there are I think in in uh in
Parliament fantastic Veterans for peace
Joe glenton author of soldier boxs
published by Verso available uh as an
ebook also as well as in the best book
shops thanks very much for joining us on
board the Sputnik thank
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you well now it's your turn we deal with
the social media review coming in
through our portal rtor Sputnik gri
what's rattling a lot on the war for
example Andy gilchris says that the
ruling class had Millions die in their
Imperial carve up row indeed and they
were all cousins with the same
grandmother yes indeed on the minor
strike Ty St says the TC Fat Cats since
1926 were inside the tent the N were
outside the tent and were on The Hit
List well don't get me started on the TU
I think I've probably said enough about
them at least in public Scot C4 says is
it a coincidence that South Yorkshire
are at the heart of both Hillsboro and
Min strike cover up well the police and
the chiefs of police uh at both
Hillsboro and at orrie which was the
great Yorkshire battle between the
pickets and the police which was
falsified even by the BBC with reverse
footage showing the miners attacking the
police when in fact it was the police on
Horseback who attacked the miners uh
there's a lot of overlap and we've had a
public inquiry into Hillsboro now we
need one over or grief and indeed The
Wider issues of the strike but will we
get it that's the question no as the Vox
pop uh uh subject said because uh the
right-wing press would probably tear
millerand to Pieces over it on the other
hand it would be a big Energizer of the
core labor vote if Miland were to
promise one Ross McDonald then says
Michael go wri three words that should
never be used in the same sentence at
least not without extreme and Wing well
he's very funny Michael go he was
himself once a striker he spent a whole
year himself on strike as a journalist
at the uh Aberdine newspaper he was a
militant in the National Union of
journalists spent a whole year locked
out uh but uh he's uh conservative to
the marrow of his bones and an
increasingly rightwing one and
belligerent one that's all the tweets we
got for this week which alas means
that's all the time we've got do keep in
touch with us though on on Twitter at
rtor Sputnik and now also on Facebook so
find us at Sputnik on Russia Today
that's it for me gri and from me George
galloth it's been marvelous
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